I am not sure whether to laugh or cry when I read this joke. It was overheard at Internet Monk and attributed by Ed to Emo Philips.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

This strongly reminds me of how much we quibble over the smallest things, and are not generous with those who differ slightly from what we believe. Pastors and denominational leaders, take a good look at your membership requirements. What is essential to the gospel? What other things can you put aside in order to fellowship with someone in your church and call him brother. Who are you excluding that Jesus has already included?

Your thoughts and comments are welcome.

I like Pentecostal joy, Episcopalian reverence, Presbyterian order, Lutheran grace, Salvation Army service, Methodist experience, Catholic mystery and Disciples of Christ ecumenism. They are my friends, not my foes, my brothers and sisters, not enemies of my family.

Walter B. Shurden

The Internet has been a real blessing to me. It has enabled me to continue my education, expand my Christian contacts [like you, I hope, dear reader], entertain myself with youtube and blog-reading and even help me to witness the Truth in love and minister to those in need. It also drives me right out of my mind.

In the past I could ignore those groups of people who say they are Christian, and may well be , yet practice something I find disturbing, like snake handling, or legalism. Now I am exposed to things I formerly was able to ignore. At the top of my personal Ignorance list was the existence of a cottage industry full of vehemence and bile, that group of people who say they are Christian and spend their lives criticizing everything that happens in a building with a cross on the roof. Don’t get me wrong, there are some loose wingnuts on the wheels of modern Christianity, and pointing out the insanity is healthy! I am not talking about those of us [me] who desire to point out wackos and frauds; I mean people who take on whole denominations, entire -faith-groups of mainstream believers, or really well known figureheads of the faith.

Is there any point in declaring Billy Graham to be anathema? All right he is old and says some odd things today, but have you read his stuff? Did you see his track record? If we were all anathema like Graham there would be a lot more Christians. Is it necessary for the Kingdom to declare John Macarthur a heretic? I have problems with dispensationalism, the whole Jesus just making a touch and go but not really landing is odd to me; I don’t own a Scofield, but MacArthur preaches the gospel! If you do a little googleing you can find somebody against anybody! It is not only individuals that get the indictment of heresy, the Southern Baptist Convention is working for the devil if you listen to some. Now I have been in the SBC tent for 12 years, there are issues. Are they apostasy? Are they anathema? Again, if you look you will find some group nailing away at another group as if they get paid a quarter a word.

Has the discernment of God’s people so decreased that we can not tell a Todd Bentley from a Ravi Zacharias? We can’t perceive a difference in message from Benny Hinn to Tim Keller? We can’t see a change in group dynamic from C.M.A. to the K.K.K.?

We need to read and follow Paul’s advise to the Philippians, “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.” I listen to a lot of sermons. I am not seeking an error in another’s ways, I am seeking to be fed on the word of God. If there is something on the plate I do not like, I don’t throw the whole dish to the ground and condemn the cook, I take what I like and praise the meal.

Please look out of the box you live in. Look at Europe. Can you call it Christian? Have you seen England? Do you think we live in an age where we can pick each other apart without serving the Enemy? It just can’t be that hard to separate the wheat from the tares. People my age will remember the Supreme Court decision on pornography. In attempting to define it one judge said, “you know it when you see it.” That definition did not stick, but come on, you know it when you see it. I do not think you need a PhD in theology to know good doctrine from false. Good doctrine may not be perfect doctrine, but it is not purposely false. As for false doctrine, you know it when you see it, it is a lot like porn.

Moderators note:  Michael has graciously allowed us to repost this article at Eclectic Christian.

Somewhere in the previous orgy of comments I’ve had this week, someone asked me to write about “What do you see as the ideal evangelicalism?”

There is no ideal evangelicalism and there’s not going to be. It’s certainly not going to be ideal if I am the architect. So let’s not get out of hand here. I’m a blogger, which tells you about all you need to know on the subject of my credibility.

But that won’t stop me from answering the question in a slightly different form: “What would make for a much better evangelicalism?”

I promise the answers are going to be short.

1) Evangelicalism would be much better if it would admit that the Reformation and all subsequent divisions divided the one true church of Christ. None of those divisions created a new church or recreated the one, true church. All of Christianity today is the broken parts of what should be whole and entire.

2) Evangelicalism would be much better if it learned to see its own destructive, polluting entanglement in culture instead of trying to justify that entanglement as evangelism. Evangelicals have to live in culture, and I believe we should influence it, discern it and build admirable contributions to it, but the most essential attitude we should have toward it is to avoid the destructive, parasitic entanglements with culture that have sucked the life, power and distinctiveness from evangelicalism, especially in North America.

3) Evangelicalism would be better if it would admit and address its authority issue. Evangelicalism consists, to a large extent, of groups and individuals waving Bibles and shouting verses at one another. Evangelicals use terms like “Biblical Christianity” as if they could actually produce such a thing if asked. The assumption that our views are “based on the Bible” has produced a cacophony of contradictory, divisive and endless claims, counter-claims and wars. The evolution of evangelicalism seems destined to be toward the opposite poles of abandoning the concept of authority completely to the individual (usually the charismatic pastor) or creating an authoritarian hothouse where complete submission is obligatory to avoid exile or worse. Evangelicals have an authority problem. They will quite possibly never solve it as evangelicals, but they can make the situation considerably better by directly addressing the problems created in Protestantism and evangelicalism by our various approaches to authority and implementing serious measures to bring some coherence to the situation.

4) Evangelicalism would be better if it rid itself of every form of the prosperity Gospel and pursued spiritual formation and an imitation of Jesus that was consistent with what Jesus and the New Testament teach about money.

5) Evangelicalism would be better if it learned to see, in the various divisions of Christianity, the remaining diversity that once adorned the united church: liturgy, missions, evangelism, spiritual formation, theology, Biblical study, the work of the Holy Spirit, the power of the sacraments. Even if these divisions cannot be overcome, the visible remains of the once glorious body of Christ can still be seen and experienced, even in our broken condition. Evangelicalism should determine, like Merton said, to bring together in itself as many different aspects of the holistic church of Jesus as possible. As someone recently said, we are in a time when the basis of Christianity is being eroded in masse, yet we are still debating the issues of the 16th century divisions and ignoring how irrelevant these are to the world at large. I affirm with my own denomination the need for a Great Commission Resurgence, and it must encompass all Christian traditions, but especially evangelicalism.

6) Evangelicalism would be better if thousands of churches die and many thousands more are born via healthy church planting relationships.

7) Evangelicalism would be better if it brought out all of its riches of corporate worship and put them on display, rather than throwing out what seems old, selling out what seems out of fashion and denouncing what isn’t popular. Evangelicals have in the more ancient, broader, deeper, wider Christian tradition all those aspects and elements of worship that can not only end the worship wars, but bring the focus of worship clearly onto Christ being exalted in all things. Evangelicals are starving by the millions for Christ focused worship and gospel dominated spirituality, but at this crucial hour, we are determined to be trendy, innovative and to get more cars in the parking lot. A sad betrayal of all we know for the wisdom of the world. We’ll be very sorry in 20 years.

8. Evangelicals would be much better off if, as a movement, they had a common set of confessional/creedal/catechetical documents. Further, evangelicalism would be much better if it recognized a shared ordained ministry.

9) Evangelicals would be be much better off it they were poor and had to proceed, in every way, without the assumption that they can easily generate millions of dollars to do whatever they want to do. We need to embrace poverty for the sake of Christ, and repent of our idolatry of all things big, successful, wealthy and powerful. In the midst of this, we should repent of and renounce our dreams of political influence.

10) Evangelicals would be much better off if the Charismatic movement were to become a manistream part of every church, renewing and being renewed; giving and being nurtured itself. Christianity is not the dead, dry, dusty movement most of us see. It is alive with power and emotion; with human and divine energy. We should desire the full manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the continual empowering, freeing, healing, humbling work of the Spirit. Charismatic Christianity needs a Biblical/theological rescue, but mainstream evangelicalism desperately needs the spiritual movement that is at the heart of healthy third-wave and charismatic movements.

Joel Black

The title for my blog, IrreligiousLife, was taken from The End of Religion: Encountering the Subversive Spirituality of Jesus by Bruxy Cavey (which I highly recommend) . . . and inspired by Bono who once said:

“I often wonder if religion is the enemy of God.

It’s almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building”

Posted in Eclectic Christian ]]> http://eclecticchristian.com/2008/11/11/introducing-myself/feed/ 1 IrreligiousLife joelblack http://eclecticchristian.com/2008/10/27/reintroducing-michael-bell/ http://eclecticchristian.com/2008/10/27/reintroducing-michael-bell/#comments Tue, 28 Oct 2008 02:13:50 +0000 Eclectic Christian http://eclecticchristian.wordpress.com/?p=303 ]]> Welcome to Eclectic Christian.  As you may have noticed, Eclectic Christian has gone through some fairly significant changes.  We have a new look and we have added two new authors, Tim Melton and Joshua Hearne.  The information in this post was originally in the “About” page, but as that information is changing I wanted somewhere to keep my own introduction.  Hence this post.

My name is Mike Bell, and I am using this site to share my thoughts on a diverse Christian world.  I call this site Eclectic Christian, because that is truely what I am.  In my Christian journey I have learned to appreciate many different facets of Christianity.

• I have appreciated the emphasis on the written word of God from my days in Christian Brethren and Baptist circles.
• I have appreciated the emphasis on the Holy Spirit from my days in Christian and Missionary Alliance and Pentecostal Circles.
• I have appreciated the ability of the Christian and Missionary Alliance to find common ground with-in themselves on areas of doctrine with which all their members may not agree.
• I have appreciated the strong sense of history and interest in the early church that I have found among some of my Catholic friends.
• I appreciate the care for the disenfranchised and for the environment found in the United Church of Canada.
• I appreciate the fresh music that has been introduced to our worship services from the Vineyard churches.
• I appreciate the focus on the church year that I have found in Anglican churches that I have visited.
• I appreciate the salvation message that is being emphasized in a variety of evangelical churches.
• I appreciate the way that many Reformed churches have an emphasis on family.
• I appreciate the emphasis on church planting found within the Christian and Missionary Alliance.
• I appreciate the Missions emphasis that I find in my Christian Brethren, Brethren in Christ, and Alliance roots.
• I appreciate that it is possible for Christians of many different backgrounds to worship, pray, and study God’s word together as I found during my years in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

In short, I want to emphasize that which I find good about the way that others are seeking to follow Christ.

Although I am accredited to be a Pastor with the Christian and Missionary Alliance, I work full time as an Internet Web Application Developer and Database Developer. Between work, and a busy family life, (wonderful wife and 3 kids) I manage to keep myself pretty occupied, so I will be blogging about twice a week.

The picture below is a view over the town of Dundas, Ontario.  (My house is a tiny spec in the center of the picture.)  I have a heart for Dundas and want to see the church of Dundas doing more to reach its community for Christ.

Dundas, Ontario

Moderators note:  This post was previously published by Michael Spencer at Internet Monk.  I believe it captures a good part of the spirit of what we are trying to accomplish at Eclectic Christian and so asked Michael Spencer’s permission to republish it here. – Michael Bell

I love Christmas movies. We have many great family memories of watching Emmet Otter’s Jug Band Christmas or singing “Sisters” and “Snow” with the cast of White Christmas. I have some personal favorites like almost any version of A Christmas Carol, the original Tim Allen Santa Clause and the strangely dark and mysterious Prancer.

I’m not a fan of the popular Christmas film Miracle on 34th Street. I’ve watched it 3 or 4 times, and maybe I just wasn’t quite in that particular frame of mind where a Christmas movie really appeals to me, but it’s never been a favorite of mine.

But there is something about “Miracle” that does appeal to me. We can call it “Miracle on 34th Street Ecumenism.”

In the story, the supposedly insane Kris Kringle (Santa to the unintitated) is inspired with a plan. The two large downtown New York department stores can change the way they compete with one another. Instead of making the other store the enemy, they could each take a more gracious view of one another. (At least at Christmas.)

How did that work? Each store did what stores do: they tried to offer the best products at the best prices to the most customers. But when the other store had a better product at a better price, you cheerfully sent the customer to the other store, with best wishes and the simple recognition that your store couldn’t do everything.

This change in behavior and attitude sparks a revolution in the retail jungle. Long time competitors treating one another with respect? With grace? With generosity? Actually recommending that someone go to the other store? And spend money?

Isn’t that unthinkable?

No…it actually sounds like Jesus and his upside down Kingdom. (It actually sounds like St. Nicholas, too. But that’s another story.)

What if Kris Kringle’s crazy idea became the model for ecumenism?

What if we all recognized that we get some things right, but we also get a lot of things wrong? And what if we recognized that some other traditions get the things right that we get wrong?

What if we recognized where others have been more Biblically faithful than we’ve been? What if we recognized that our pride can turn us into bullies when we ought to be friends? (We are all in this together, aren’t we?)

What if we recognized some churches feed the poor, or do liturgy, or preach faithfully or address the issue of race better than we do? And what if we weren’t afraid to point out those strengths?

What if we sat down and learned from one another? What if we sent some of our people to the other church to listen, watch, worship, pray, work and learn? And then come back and share the gathered wealth?

What if we embraced our brothers and sisters in Christ rather than in every point of doctrine? What if we confessed our common faith rather than constantly pointing out the deficiencies of the other tradition? What if we imagined what we’d do if all Christians were persecuted, imprisoned or tortured?

What if we extended the name of brother and sister to other Christians, rather than the theological labels that immediately advertise our differences…and our “rightness” in comparison to their “wrongness?”

What if we valued differing traditions as preserving different and valuable aspects of Christianity rather than seeing them only as competitors to be defeated and perpetuators of error?

If department stores could send a customer to the other store for a better price on a refrigerator, why couldn’t we send someone to another tradition to find what we’re out of, threw away, devalued or never had?

If department stores could take advice from Jesus (or Santa), why can’t we? The stores didn’t go out of business. They didn’t merge. They didn’t publish pages and pages of heated rhetoric about one another. They didn’t act as if their mission was to put the other store out of business.

They embraced something new. The embraced serving people; they embraced a higher sense of what it meant to do business. They believed a kind of radical, backwards logic that resembles what Jesus constantly calls us to. It is the transforming and surprising logic of the Kingdom of God, where the law of love says to love our enemies, to go the second mile and to wash one another’s feet.

Oh, I know….this is a ridiculous post. I know that I don’t exemplify what I’m writing about. I know there are a dozen serious objections and a hundred people waiting with their own stories of how badly they’ve been treated and misrepresented. Sometimes I’m the culprit.

But it’s a better way, and I think we all know it. We can’t conduct our relations with other Christians as if our books and arguments and podcasts are going to make them go away. A dozen books and a thousand blog posts aren’t going to turn Christians into Catholics or Calvinists or Lutherans or Charismatics or Baptists.

So, until Jesus comes back, why don’t we treat one another- as traditions and as churches- with the same crazy grace that Kris Kringle believed could transform department stores?

Joshua is a Baptist Pastor who is specializing in spiritual formation. His blog, Telling the stories that matter, focuses on introducing us to many of the great Christians of the past. If you have an interest in Church History, it is a wonderful resource.

Tim Melton is a Presbyterian Pastor, who is a fan of C.S. Lewis, and Football (The American Variety). Someday I will have to have him up to Canada to introduce him to the much superior three down game. Tim’s own blog, Sacrosanct Gospel, like Eclectic Christian, also emphasizes the need to focus on the centrality of the gospel of Christ.

As for myself, for those who don’t know me, I am accredited with the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada, which is quite possibly Canada’s fastest growing denomination. I have worked the last number of years as an Internet Web Developer, and as there is no Alliance church in our area, our church home is at a North American Baptist Church.

So I am looking forward to a wonderful new season at Eclectic Christian. Eclectic Christian will still be emphasizing that which we find good about the way that others are seeking to follow Christ, no matter what their tradition. And of course we will be working on layout changes to the site to reflect our new working relationship.

In the first part I looked at the question statistically, primarily using data from Statistics Canada, and from the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.

In this second part I will focus on an anecdotal analysis.

2. Andecotal Analysis

I feel I need to offer a bit of a disclaimer, largely because of some comments that I got in part 1. I am not a Catholic, I am an Evangelical Protestant. I am not a Catholic because there are a number of Catholic doctrines that I do not believe in, and what I believe is very important to me. In my mind, some of these differences are significant, others are minor. I don’t feel it is important to list the differences here as I don’t really want to get into arguments about what should or shouldn’t be in the lists.

I would also like to reiterate from part 1, that salvation is found only through faith in Jesus Christ. What I like to look for in a person, is a definite commitment to faith in Christ, adherence to the early basic creeds of Christianity (I am sorry, but if you don’t affirm the divinity of Christ then you are not a Christian), and I look for the fruit of the Spirit. (Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self control) Of course, only God knows a person’s heart, and when the final judgment comes I am sure that I am going to find surprises on both sides of the ledger.

In that final judgment, one of my biggest surprises is going to be how many things I got wrong. Even in those areas where I am pretty sure I have my theology right there is likely to be a few shocks.   So when I write what I write, I do it with a certain amount of humbleness knowing that just because I disagree with someone, doesn’t mean that I am right.  The other person may be right, or we may both be wrong.

Much of my theology I find has been shaped by reaction against what I have seen in my own previous traditions.  I have found that those who have left a particular tradition tend to be its strongest critics as they are so focused on what was bad in their old tradition that they cannot see the good.  As anyone who has read my profile knows, I have appreciated much from the various traditions to which I have been exposed, but in some cases it took a long time to focus on the good that I experienced in a particular tradition, and focus less on the bad.  This tendency to focus on the negative of a previous tradition was very well described by C. Michael Patton in his post Converting from Evangelicalism a few weeks ago.  He wrote:

From what I have seen, converts are sometimes the most unable to see things with a balanced perspective. Because of their belief that their previous faith commitments betrayed them, they approach issues as “enlightened” warriors against those former allegiances. The problem is that they normally wear their bitterness on their sleeve and this further taints the glasses that they think they are not wearing.

He goes on to say that:

Misrepresentation, ironically, abounds in these circumstances. They feel as if being a convert gives them a pass to say anything they want. “Don’t tell me what they believe, I used to be one!”

So how does this relate to this post.  I have known both Evangelicals who have become Catholics and Catholics who have become Evangelicals.    I have been told by some former Roman Catholics what Roman Catholics believe.  Are they accurate in their assessments?  I really am not a good one to judge, as I have so little experience in this area, but my feeling is that generally their objectivity has been been clouded by their previous experiences.

Take the topic of Mary worship for example.  Do Catholics worship Mary?  Some former Roman Catholics say yes.   Catholic doctrine says no, she is to be venerated but not worshipped.  Maybe some do worship Mary, but my own experience has been that the Roman Catholics that I have come in contact with over the years have not done so.

Let me introduce you to two of them.

Marie, was a former girlfriend, someone who I met through a Christian club at University.   I remember her saying to me one day, “Today is my birthday!”.   “What do you mean?” I said. “I thought your birthday was in February.”  Marie replied, “Today is the [can't remember the number of years] anniversary of when I committed my life to Jesus.”  She was one who definitely had the Holy Spirit living within her, and it showed itself by the spiritual fruit in her life.  Some time after breaking up she told me that she felt that God had given her the gift singleness and that it was her desire to commit her entire life to him and become a Nun.  The last I heard from her she was taking steps in that direction.  (Cue the jokes from friends, “Mike, you scared her off men forever!”)

Why do people choose to commit themselves to a lifetime of service within the Roman Catholic church, even if they disagree with some of the things being taught or practiced?  I put that same question to Patrick, another young University friend, and someone who was very evangelical in his beliefs.  For him it was about antiquity, being part of the church that had been there from the beginning.  “I may not believe everything I am taught”, he said, “but there is just something about being part of the church that can trace its lineage directly back to the feet of Jesus that is very appealing to me.”  The last I heard from Patrick, he too had decided to commit his entire life to Christ, and began studying to become a Priest.  He said he found it interesting that approximately half of those that he was studying with had the same evangelical understanding of salvation that he did, a fact that he did not find that surprising.  “If Jesus Christ isn’t real to you, if you don’t have a faith and trust in him, then there is not much point in being a Priest,” he said.

Both Marie, and Patrick, along with myself, are going to find out at the Judgment seat where our theology is correct and where our theology is wrong.  But there is going to be one question that is going to matter more that any other.  “What have you done with my son?”  How we answer that question is going to determine our future destiny.   There is no doubt in my mind that when worshipping God in eternity that Marie and Patrick will be right there along side me.

One final note:  There are many other Maries and Patricks out there.  The Internet Monk does a good job of describing what attracts evangelicals to the Catholic church in his post here and here.